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NFPA 99 2012 Edition Section #5.1.10.11.11

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  • Wednesday, April 12, 2017 6:17 PM
    Message # 4749264
    Al Moon (Administrator)

    Brazier qualification and brazing procedure are to be provide and maintain on the job site per #5.1.10.11.10.5. Then per #5.10.11.11.5 the Brazing Procedures shall meet #5.1.10..11.11.5 right?

     

    Who has ever seen this written Brazing Procedure (i.e. manual, report, document).

     

     

     

  • Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:02 AM
    Reply # 4750055 on 4749264

    I look for them. I talk about this in the 6035 course. The 6010 cards that say the person is a certified brazer don't mean anything because it does not describe what type of joint, material, position, and pipe/tube size the person is qualified to perform. You need to see the brazing procedure and then the qualification to make sure they match. You also need to verify that they have maintained their 6 month certification. This can be a log or some other record of their brazing under the qualified procedure. 

  • Thursday, April 13, 2017 9:58 AM
    Reply # 4750279 on 4749264
    Al Moon (Administrator)

    So, with that said.

    Checking someone's brazing credentials is easy (even their concurrency).

    But now the question, who should be reviewing this ?

     

    The BRAZING PROCEDURES DOCUMENTATION ?   

     

    Should it not be supplied via Credentialing Organization - Agency to meet  #5.1.10.11.11.5. (even at an additional cost to the brazier )

     

    What is ready happening is people are getting their brazing credentials preforming the work in the field without this documentations, thinking all is good. Is this even a test question from the Credentialing Organization - Agencies ? 

     

    NFPA 2012 CODE: 

     

    5.1.10.11.10.5  Prior to any installation work, the installer of medical gas and vacuum piping shall provide and maintain documentation on the job site for the qualification of brazing procedures and individual brazers that is required under 5.1.10.11.11

     

    Would an ASSE 6030, let a none ASSE 6010 credentials brazing install a medical gas & vacuum system ?

    Should an ASSE 6030, ask to see the required on site brazing procedure documentations ?  

  • Friday, April 14, 2017 7:33 AM
    Reply # 4752029 on 4749264

    Doesn't section 5.1.12.1.1 make that clear "... by a documented process that all applicable provisions of this document have been adhered to and system integrity has been achieved or maintained". Verifying that the individuals who installed the system have been qualified to this code and maintain that qualification would be important for system integrity. 

  • Monday, April 17, 2017 6:26 AM
    Reply # 4756355 on 4749264

    This is an interesting one - I often talk to engineers about this because in my view the procedure itself is something they should be specifying.  

    In essence, the organization the brazer obtains their 6010 card from (NITC, MGTC, etc.) determines the procedure under which they are qualified.  Their employer will not even have an idea (much less a written copy) of that procedure, except as they may have worked through it themselves for their own 6010.  If you as a verifier or another AHJ asked to see the procedure, they could only show you the card and refer you to the agency.

    But the card seems to be considered adequate to meet the requirement of NFPA, along with the "ongoing proof" mentioned by Bob. 

    Bob, have you ever seen an actual "procedure document"?

  • Monday, April 17, 2017 6:21 PM
    Reply # 4757609 on 4749264
    Al Moon (Administrator)

    So:

     

    The independent agency issuing the ASSE 6010, shall provide the brazing procedure documents to each individual brazier - plus their certification card.

    To be its clear - its two differed items (see. #5.1.10.11.10.5).

     

    Now its just the issue in Section # 5.10.11.11.5 and who is the qualified technically competent group or agency permitted to write, this documented brazing procedure.

     

    That the employer and installer shall have on the job site prior to any installation work.

     

  • Monday, April 17, 2017 7:00 PM
    Reply # 4757650 on 4749264

    We document the Installer's ASSE 6010 credential in our verification paperwork. 

     

    I'm seeing it more common that Installers are required to submit their brazing documentation as part of their submittals (it's written into the spec). 

     

    But, I see no explicit requirement by NFPA 99 5.1.10.11.10.5 for the Verifier to require documentation of the Installer's qualification procedures.  Others may interpret this requirement as implied, but my interpretation is that enforcement of this specific requirement is the responsibility of the Owner (via the spec) and/or the AHJ.

    Last modified: Monday, April 17, 2017 7:02 PM | Luke Miller
  • Tuesday, April 18, 2017 7:42 AM
    Reply # 4758418 on 4749264

    I love this conversation.

    The brazing procedure belongs to the firm (company, employer, ect), the employee is then qualified to the firms procedure. A firm can accept a procedure that a individual has qualified under if they have a copy of the procedure that the individual has qualified under and sign it to show acceptance of the procedure. An individual cannot just take their brazing certification from one firm to the next and continue brazing. A firm must have on file an approved brazing procedure to which an individual gets qualified. An organization (e.g. MGTC or NITC) that provides brazing certifications does so to a procedure that they provide to the firm or to a procedure that the firm supplies. 

    Mark, I have four different procedures to which bulk cryogenic installers working under my procedures are qualified. The Copper Development Association provides brazing procedures that a lot installers get qualified under. https://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/brzng_prcdr/brzng_prcdr_spec_main.html

    Luke, while I agree with your first two statements I respectfully disagree with your last statement. While would you even need to review an installers qualifications (e.g. 6010) if it is already in the owners requirements (via the spec) and or AHJ requirements to have the 6010 certification. If it is a Verifiers responsibility to to confirm that the the installer is a 6010 then it would also be their responsibility to confirm that the individual is brazing within the range for witch they are brazing certified.  

  • Tuesday, April 18, 2017 9:37 AM
    Reply # 4758577 on 4749264

    Bob -

     

    Fair question.  To my point, consider the explicit language in 5.1.10.11.10.1 -- based on our individual experience, each of us might interpret "qualified, competent...experienced..." differently.  We all know Installers who have a 6010 credential but have no business installing medgas systems.

     

    5.1.10.11.10.1 The installation of medical gas and vacuum systems shall be made by qualified, competent technicians who are experienced in performing such installations, including all personnel who actually install the piping system.  

     

    My opinion is the Verifier has no enforcement authority, so we document the Installer's credential as a record they are "qualified, competent...experienced..." to have performed the work, based on them having an ASSE 6010 credential issued by a (hopefully) reputable agency, and one that did so compliant with NFPA 99 requirements.

     

    A well-written spec can protect the Verifier in this regard.

  • Wednesday, April 19, 2017 4:32 AM
    Reply # 4762463 on 4749264

     Keep going guys, not only am I enjoying it I'm learning a lot. 

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